I was wondering what ya'll thought of the 20 rep squat versus a 4x5 (or something similar) format. I have only tried the 20 rep squat once and
don't really remember much about it, other than it being awfully brutal of course. What does the 4x5 do the 1x20 does not and vice versa?
Just on the surface of it I would think the 4x5 would allow heavier weight and promote more strength whilst the 1x20 would promote deeper inroads into the
muscle and thus more hypertrophy? Like I said, I have limited experience with the 1x20 but everything I have read says good things about it in the way of
strength and size.
Squats
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 SebastianHammer |
Squats |
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(12/21/07 22:09:56) |
Do, or do not, there is no try.
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BossB |
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(12/21/07 22:25:18) |
If you do twenty reps the hard way #10 is your last rep, then it is followed by ten more "last reps". I don't believe in "inroads" but
20r rest/pause sets have quite a history.
4x5 can do the same thing as well if you keep the sets close (which is pointless, if you do this, why not just do the 20r r/p), if you space them out, it's more of a strength thing. However, if you do five rep sets spaced out over a longer period from an hour to over a day, then it can do both pretty nicely. I don't think hypertrophy is about sets and reps as much as volume/unit time with a specific % range of loads. I also don't think it's "in the muscle" so much as a hormonal reaction to that sort of stress. When I started thinking about it that way, it opened alot of doors and made sense out of alot of stuff that sure didn't make sense before. Just another way of looking at it. We never see all this directly, all we have is models and how you model something helps you ask the right questions, then if you ask the right questions the answers are easy. I don't mean to sound condescending, it's just something I've been rethinking on alot lately. Bryce |
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SebastianHammer |
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(12/22/07 07:04:48) |
How different then would a 20 rep squat be than a warmup set of 10 followed by 10x1 with just minimal rest between each? Seems like it would be roughly
equivelent.
Do, or do not, there is no try.
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Steve Freides |
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(12/22/07 08:54:02) ShopSteward |
SH: No disrepect intended, but you need to do a bit of reading about 20-rep squats. I've never done them and never hope to, but they are one of those
"rite of passage" routines for just about everyone who does, and you really are supposed to take a 10-rep max, "max" meaning you can't
do an 11th rep, and somehow do the 11th, 12th, and on up to the 20th rep - somehow (basically by standing there with the bar on your back until you recover
enough to crank out another rep).
They are the classic formula for getting bigger and stronger, and nothing I've ever read has lead me to doubt their effectiveness. There's a book on the Ironmind web site that's the classic on the subject you might want to get. I don't think you absolutely need the book but it's probably good for inspiration when doing these if you decide to go this route. Which, as Bryce said, doesn't mean you can't do 4x5 on short rests and get bigger and stronger, too, but it won't be the same as 20-rep squats. BTW, Pavel's Bear program from PTP is another route to the bigger/stronger goal if you wish - again, not for the timid, and it will almost certainly result in a different sort of hypertrophy than 20-rep squats will. For that matter, Bryce's 50/20, if you push yourself hard and you eat enough, will do that, too. My guess is that 20-rep squats is a thing you ought to give a try, given what you've stated here about your goals for yourself. Just my opinion. -S- http://www.kbnj.com |
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support |
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(12/22/07 09:02:43) |
Steve F.--"and you really are supposed to take a 10-rep max, "max" meaning you can't do an 11th rep, and somehow do the 11th, 12th, and on
up to the 20th rep - somehow (basically by standing there with the bar on your back until you recover enough to crank out another rep)."
This is one of the ugliest things in weightlifting. I looked on you tube. It was probably too ugly for them. I couldn't find anything or didn't know the right keywords... There used to be a video of Ken Leistner doing 405#@160# for 20r, but that was subject to controversy and dissapeared from everywhere. The differences are in work/unit of time. For example suppose I do 20r rest/pause (the classic) with 300#, thats 20x300# in about 3-5min (a guess, seems longer)=6000# in 3-5min If you do the 10r warmup +10 with the same amount of weight you are likely spreading it out a little more so the amount of work is less in the same amount of time. If the bar never comes off your back then you are doing classic 20rep squats. However. If you do a straight 20r then you will be doing this with a lighter amount of weight since what you can do a straight twenty with is lighter than what you can do ten with and drag out another ten one at a time. Lets say you can do that with 250# that's 5000# in a short time, yet isn't as stressfull generally speaking since you are at the low end of the effectiveness range around 60% of tmax. Now if you do 4x5, the weight you can use is higher for a 5r set, usually up around 80-85% at the top of the effective resistance range for BB, however you are going to do rests between the sets, usually about two minutes and the volume is limited to 4 sets. Going another way, lets talk bear. if you do 6 rep sets over an hour and get perhaps 12 sets in that hour with 335# or so (another guess), then that's 24120# moved in that hour. That's quite a bit of volume, you're body's gonna notice that even if you feel like you're taking it pretty easy. Now, lets do the 20min thing as another alternative. Lets say you clockwork this out to 15 sets of 3 and 5 singles with the same 335# (guessing #age again) that's 16750#/20m. Generally the "mega mass fast" routines have one thing in common and that's alot of volume in a small unit of time, except for the "bear" or Anderson kind of routines that are just alot of volume. In HIT, especially the Leistner variety, this is still what's happening. You've got the exercises done for some higher number of reps but you buzz through the list as fast as possible, if you add it up, even just the squats presses and DLs, ignoring the small stuff, that' still alot of volume in a short time and over time. Especially if you do this three times a week instead of messing with a three or four day split. It works just fine, you just have to back off now and then. The routines that work for packing on mass for are always about moving alot of metal around, often, with major muscle groups in the right resistance ranges. The Russians (who were not generally Bbers) used to measure athlete workload in tonnage/month, week or year. I think there is alot to this if you specify what you are moving it in, and divide it up so that there are backoffs and rests. If you measure it this way, then it gives you a very good view on what you are actually doing. Bryce
Last Edited By: support
12/22/07 09:50:49.
Edited 3 times.
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SebastianHammer |
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(12/22/07 09:47:45) |
I had to go back to my posts and look at 'em to see what I said to provoke such disrespect...
No disrespect taken! I have actually read the "Super Squats" book. I read it straight through like a novel (horror maybe?) once and then refer back to it periodically. I always take books about particular programs with a very healthy dose of skepticism as they almost always act like cheerleaders for their routine even if it is late in the 4th quarter and their routine is down by 4 touchdowns. Another thing I have found with the few weightlifting books I have read is they don't, typically, talk about other routines other than to point out their inherent deficiencies. Thus, my post here asking what anyone here thought about them. I don't have much first hand knowledge so I did not want to say too much about them because it is all second hand and theoretical knowledge. Yeah, everything I have see says the 20 rep squat is not for the weak of heart, weak of backbone, or timid. I imagine it is going to beat me down pretty quickly, but I am going to give it a try. Had my first 20 rep squat workout today, but went too heavy and the weight crashed down to the pins never to budge again on rep 12. Heh, I even sat there under the bar for several breaths and tried to get it back up to keep the set going, but to no avail.
Do, or do not, there is no try.
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Steve Freides |
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(12/22/07 12:55:03) ShopSteward |
Bryce, I think Pavel's one-liner for getting bigger was "get a pump with a heavy weight." Apologies if I'm misquoting but I think that's
it. There are obviously lots of ways to get there. His Bear routine is 20 sets of 5 on short rests, not a whole lot different than a 50/20, more volume than a
20-rep squat set but the difficulty of the one set kind of makes up for the volume in its own, perverse sort of way.
-S- http://www.kbnj.com |
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BossB |
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(12/22/07 13:18:12) |
I wonder about that with the 20r squat set. I thought about it this way for a long time. Instead of doing eleven sets, why not just have eleven last reps and
skip the other preliminary reps...
It's a pretty primitive notion but I wonder how close to some physiological truth that really is. Bryce |
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Malcolm47 |
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(12/22/07 15:05:09) |
Lots of ways to do things,
I've seen Stony work himself to 250 on Oly snatches and c&j using a routine similar to Pavel's bear and my nephew Andrew has bulled up(as we say here) nicely just competitively moving the rock pile with me. Bryce, I like that idea, but I'm not likely to try it with much result at 60. 
At that age you mostly maintain. |
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Shawn Weldon |
Squats | ||
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(12/22/07 15:13:12) |
If I recall correctly, the Dr. Ken video was pulled due to legal issues. There was music playing in the background and he was threatened with copyright
infringement or something. It must have been Metallica.
Shawn |
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BossB |
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(12/22/07 16:44:40) |
"Bulled up?", "butch up" is getting a little old and worn so if you don't mind I'll adopt this as an alternative down south here.
The music thing makes sense. None of the other "controversies" I heard about the video make as much pure sense as that. Is Metallica still groping for dimes in the dust? Finally explains why James Hetfield cut his hair, they probably all give blood alot too so they can afford instruments and clothes, unless the companies that make guitars and stuff give it to them FREE as a form of advertising. It's another example of corporate kindness to the poor but loud...Heading into the "stupid things to put on a weightlifting board" thing I explore now and then, I was really on the artist's side until I saw some complaining that I would swear I remembered from videos with giant limos, "little people" in leather and writhing chicks in 3 ounces of spandex. Their pleas of being wronged by my selfishness seemed exagerated. Back to the 20rep squat routine. I think it might be a good idea to mention that not everyone prospers on this routine. Some people it burns out like paper matches in an oxygen tent. If you are one of those people, don't blame yourself. There are lots of other things to do that will produce similar effects and might suit you better. If doing the squats this way makes your back feel like a breaking U-joint then as Malcolm said there are also O-lifts. "Primitivized" versions of O-lifts like power clean/push press combos work as good as anything and are easier to keep control of once the "I think I can't do one more, but there's still five in the set" point comes along. Some people can do this, some can't. It doesn't say anything about your character, just that it may not be the right fit for you right now. The reason I mention this is that it's not uncommon for people to keep working halfway at routines like this which they are not into for a long time and getting nothing for the half-effort when they could switch to something which is far more suitable for them they can put into and be having actual results. Bryce |
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Kcon |
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(12/22/07 20:27:43) |
I actually found the 20r squat program to be more of a mental challenge than a physical challenge. I asked Randell Strossen about this once and he agreed that
the mental aspect was very important. If memory serves me right, he said something about using the program with troubled teens.
Keith
"He was a piece of moving steel,forged in the fires of effort and determination, tempered with oceans of sweat, until he was as hard or harder than the iron he lifted." Dino Training on Arthur Saxon
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BossB |
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(12/22/07 20:43:39) |
I find this with the mental challenge to be true also, however it's only before I'm doing it. Back when I was, I'd start worrying the night before,
wake up dreading it, then go out into the rack and after the first couple of reps I was in it and things were fine. It was like some sort of reality check, if
I could make it through the twenty and then the smaller stuff, then there was nothing they could throw at me at work that would be any worse than that.
I think why this is why alot of people stay with working out, it's this reality check you can calibrate yourself against by just facing down and beating the monster (fear in your own head) one more time. Bryce |
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chuckrea |
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(12/23/07 04:14:00) Senior Chief |
I have the original video of the whole Dr Ken workout.He does alot of shrugs.He seems to like this exercise.Also alot of spitting and cussing going on.And no
it isnt mettalica.I want to get it made into a DVD.The book itself talks alot about Joe Hise who is kind of the poster child for the program.There is also a
program promoted by a guy named epps or eggers or something like that where he took pupils and had them use lights squats for high reps(20 I think).Basically
the book called for one very basic program and then a little more volume program and then a 5x5 to switch up to when you went stale on the super squats
stuff.Oh,and drink alot of milk.
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BossB |
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(12/23/07 09:26:19) |
I think that was Roger Eels (pron--ails), they did long squats sets but he believed it was the breathing between reps that caused growth, they never did over
bodyweight though I think.
ChuckRea-That's what I remember too, It's just that I loaned my copy out and.... Bryce |
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mark litherland |
20 rep squats | ||
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(12/23/07 11:29:59) |
Kcon wrote: I tend to use 20 rep squats at the end of a squat session and use them as a mental challenge as well as a physical one.
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. Sir Winston Churchill |
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SebastianHammer |
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(12/23/07 17:52:25) |
Yes, it is definitely a mental challenge. I have not done the 20r in a while, but that part I really remember. You are right, Boss, about the dreading the
gruelling workout. I get that way sometimes when I am doing a heavy 50/20. I was doing sandbag stuff on a 50/20 format and really dreaded the workouts. On
the day I was going to do them I would have it in the back of my mind I was going to have to do them all day. After I got through I felt great, especially if
I got all 50, I felt like I had really accomplished something.
You use the 20r squats at the end of a squat session? I would have to drop back to the bar if I was going to try something like that. Of course, if you train for it there is little someone really cannot do.
Do, or do not, there is no try.
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